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Talk:The Winds of Winter
House Manderly I know that House Manderly is not likely to make an appearance at this point in the season but still I would love to see them show up in this final episode under the guise of seeking an alliance with the Freys and the Lannisters in exchange for rulership of the North only to pull off a Red Wedding-type massacre to avenge Wendel Manderly. In case you're wondering, I have not read A Dance with Dragons but I do know what happens with House Manderly in that one, and I think it's pretty cool. Shaneymike (talk) 18:57, June 24, 2016 (UTC) :I'd really love for that to happen. The Manderlys taking out the Freys next episode makes much more sense than Arya or Jaime doing that (I could see Jaime intentionally not intervening, however). But like you said, it's probably not going to happen. All that mentioning of the Manderlys and nothing. Reddyredcp (talk) 22:01, June 24, 2016 (UTC) Why did they even bother mentioning the Manderlys so much earlier in the season?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:16, June 26, 2016 (UTC) :Yeah it seemed awfully weird to have Ramsay mention them as potential allies. You would think they'd be royally pissed with the Boltons after Wendel died at the Red Wedding. I can sorta see why they would choose not to aid the Starks after hearing what Robett Glover said though.Shaneymike (talk) 16:31, June 26, 2016 (UTC) ::The Manderlys seem to be much more OP in the books than in the show to be honest. In the books, they're described as having military strength of extraordinary size for a northern house, possibly many times that of the Glovers at least. Not acually seen much about them at all in the show, so presumably they will play a bigger part next season if at all. ::EDIT: If I remember correctly, their lord Wendel Manderly is only prevented from joining the Starks by the immediate military force of the Boltons. The show has now removed this obstacle even if the show gives them a quite smaller role. [[User:Speedit| Speedit ]] ♞ talk contribs 20:35, June 26, 2016 (UTC) edited 23:05, June 26, 2016 Yeah, but earlier Season 6 episodes, twice, said "the three militarily strongest families in the North after the Starks and Boltons are the Umbers, Karstarks, and Manderlys". Sansa even mentioned them again in episode 8, but there wasn't enough time for them to come. Maybe it's so they have some rational means of explaining how "the North" overall will have any standing army left after the pounding that Jon's force took in the Battle of the Bastards - the new core would be made of Manderlys, Cerwyns, etc. Don't know.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 22:03, June 26, 2016 (UTC) :This makes some great sense, seeing as the lionwolf's share of the North's military strength is crow fodder from the Twins to the Wall. Speedit 23:09, June 26, 2016 (UTC) LSH I haven't given up hope on LSH.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:16, June 26, 2016 (UTC) Unlock It's been 45 minutes since the episode ended. TheUnknown285 (talk) 02:45, June 27, 2016 (UTC) :I was late finishing it: had to renew my HBO Now account at the worst possible time.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 07:37, June 27, 2016 (UTC) Did Littlefinger loan Varys his transporter? Someone please explain how Varys returned so quickly from Dorne to the Slaver's Bay... 06:21, June 27, 2016 (UTC) Well...Dorne is closer to Slaver's Bay than any other part of Westeros, and second....I think they imply that many weeks passed after that, OR, that Daenerys's fleet as we see it in the last shot isn't even in slaver's bay anymore, but is joined by Tyrell and Martell fleets.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 07:36, June 27, 2016 (UTC) I'm going to have to agree with TDD that it is highly likely that Varys and the Martell and Tyrell fleets set sail from Dorne and met Danaerys's ships while they were already en route. There is no land visible in any shots of the combined fleet, only open water, which would indicate that they have left the Bay of Dragons(formerly Slaver's Bay) and are on the open sea, IMO. DrachenRitter42 (talk) 13:49, June 28, 2016 (UTC) The Wall The wiki notes are incorrect when they say the Wall doesn't appear in the episode; Benjen, Bran and Meera look directly at it in their scene. Jcthefluteman (talk) 07:33, June 27, 2016 (UTC) The Wall as a storyline, i.e. the Night's Watch. Bran and Meera are "beyond the Wall", albeit looking at the Wall. Semantics.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 07:38, June 27, 2016 (UTC) :Another point is more important, in this episode was stated for THE FIRST TIME that magic is included in the Wall, that was omitted till now in the TV show while in the novels it was known. Maybe this should be included in the article. That Benjen couldn't cross the wall because of the magic, that he's like the character COLDHANDS from the novels who was, after all I saw, merged with him. --Exodianecross (talk) 15:19, June 27, 2016 (UTC) House Frey words Wait a minute: Walder Frey: "For House Lannister!" Lannister soldiers: "Hear me roar!" (quoting Lannister official motto) Walder Frey: "For House Frey!" Crowd: "We stand together!" ...was....was this establishing that House Frey's official words are in fact, "We Stand Together"...? We don't know what their motto is in the novels. I mean the context is everything.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 07:41, June 27, 2016 (UTC) Novels-wise, we can consider it "semi-canon", like the house words in Westeros.org that hasn't been confirmed in the novels yet.--Gonzalo84 (talk) 07:44, June 27, 2016 (UTC) Well no, I mean, in context, I'm hesitant that the TV-Freys were actually quoting a "motto" then. Thoughts?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:53, June 27, 2016 (UTC) It does seem a bit odd that they would call out the lannister house name, quote the lannister motto and then callout house frey and say something completely unrelated rather than quoting house frey's motto - 14:15, June 27, 2016 (UTC) Sailing From Dorne? I didn't notice this at first, but Dany's fleet includes ships that have Tyrell and Martell sails. So either they sailed to Meereen and then are sailing back or Dany had already sailed to Westeros, joined up with the Martell and Tyrell forces and is now sailing to wherever (King's Landing??)TheUnknown285 (talk) 08:39, June 27, 2016 (UTC) 1 - it was a nice visual 2 - I suspect that as her fleet sailed west, the Tyrell and Martell fleets sailed east, and they've rendezvoused somewhere south of the Free Cities in the middle. Plausible. Shrug. I'm not as offended as Littlefinger teleporting to Mole's Town this season.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 13:55, June 27, 2016 (UTC) : Varys left Meereen to meet up with Sand Snakes and Lady Olenna and then all of them and their ships sailed to Meereen and afterwards Dany, Tyrion, Unsullied, Greyjoys are all sailing towards Westeros this explains how Varys is on Dany's ship at the end. :: Actually, the final scene happen perhaps a few weeks after the conversation of Lady Olenna and the Sand Snakes. Same to the scene before Varys left to Westeros. Given that the "Essos" Arc is separate to the events in Westeros, I do think they don't follow the timeline as the others. -Dandan550 (talk) 11:13, June 29, 2016 (UTC) Sara Dylan Can we confirm if Sara Dylan, the unidentified handmaiden, actually reappeared in Season 6?--The Dragon Demands (talk) 14:09, June 27, 2016 (UTC) Has Cersei's wildfire explosion provoked Daenerys's Rebellion? Remember when Mad King burned all those people which in turn started Robert's Rebellion and with that they almost completely wiped out House Targaryen. Will House Lannister get it's own Rains of Castamare now by almost everyone that Dany has alleginace with?? Eko is Oke (talk) 14:42, June 27, 2016 (UTC) I think Danaerys's attack on King's Landing would happen regardless of what Cersei did. However, I do think that with the addition of the forces of both House Tyrell and House Martell as a result of Cersei going "Mad Queen" on the Great Sept, Danaerys is in a far stronger position than she would have been otherwise - whereas the opposite is true for Cersei. DrachenRitter42 (talk) 13:43, June 28, 2016 (UTC) Some parts of what Benjen said was a bit unclear Can someone tell me exactly every single word he has said in this episodeLygarx (talk) 14:55, June 27, 2016 (UTC) Pictures Inside The Great Sept? I think there were more deaths of characters that have their own page on this wiki but I have not seen any pictures of the crowds inside the Great Sept to confirm. Any uploads would be greatly appreciated (I don't know how to do it myself) so we can cross more characters off the list of the living. Regards Ser Shield McShield (talk) 01:13, June 28, 2016 (UTC) Jaime's expression I looked closely at Jaime's facial expression at Cersei's crowning, and could not understand it. How do you interpret it - contentment, disgust, scorn, etc.? 06:49, June 28, 2016 (UTC) I would call it a mix of shock and disgust. It's not clear whether he knows what happened with absolute certainty, but I think he guesses that she destroyed the Great Sept of Baelor, which means that Margaery and(much more importantly) Tommen are dead as a result Cersei's actions. And Jaime of all people would see the parallels between Cersei's actions and the actions taken by the Mad King during the capture of King's Landing at the end of Robert's Rebellion. My thinking is that this - having caused, deliberately or not, the death of their only surviving child - could be the straw that breaks the camel's back, and finally sees Jaime - next season - give up on his unnatural attachment to his twin sister. And I think he might also be worried that he may have to live up to his epithet a second time. DrachenRitter42 (talk) 13:35, June 28, 2016 (UTC) :I assume you are right DrachenRitter42! In the novels, Jaime and Cersei started to drift apart after Tyrions trial and before he left for the Riverlands. Maybe this will happen now! --Exodianecross (talk) 04:36, June 29, 2016 (UTC) Lyanna's Nurse Any word on if the characters are named? I suspect it might be Wylla. TheUnknown285 (talk) 03:18, June 29, 2016 (UTC) :I think their names could be important if Melisandre goes to Dorne after her exile and somehow ends up investigating his parentage too. :The storyline would probably do that if Bran is destined to die North of the Wall - though one does not simply kill all these people and put their sacrifice in vain without good reason, even GoT. :To be fair, I think Targaryen rule in Westeros will allow the two nurses to come forward and speak. Though Daenarys could enter a Dance of the Dragons scenario with Jon. [[User:Speedit| Speedit ]] ♞ talk contribs 14:21, July 5, 2016 (UTC) Characters who might/will kill Cersei in Season 7 1. Arya Stark 2. Jaime Lannister 3. Daenerys Targaryen What do you guys think? Who do you think might kill her Mad Highness next season? Eko is Oke (talk) 06:39, June 29, 2016 (UTC) The prophecy given to Cersei was that her "little brother" would kill her. She thinks that means Tyrion will kill her, which helps explains her animosity towards Tyrion. But Jaime was born after Cersei - by only a few minutes - which means he is also her "little brother". My bet is that Jaime kills Cersei, probably because she wants to use more wildfire to destroy more of King's Landing. Regards Ser Shield McShield (talk) 23:49, June 29, 2016 (UTC) :That would be completely poetic and awesome if it were Jaime. I can't even imagine that scene and how amazing it would be. He is the Kingslayer after all, now he'd be the Queenslayer. I'm excited to see these last 2 seasons. 19:35, July 3, 2016 (UTC) :Well, that's one thing that I like about the Valonqar Prophecy (and that I've repeatedly pointed out in various GoT-related YouTube conversations): Maegi claimed that Cersei will be killed by a''' little brother, but she never specified '''whose little brother. So any male with an older sibling is a candidate for executing Cersei and fulfilling the Valonqar Prophecy (and that may even include any female with an older sibling, if "Valonqar" is indeed a gender-neutral word as some have claimed). :So as poetic as Jaime becoming the Valonqar would be, I'm still placing my bet on Sandor Clegane. And not just because of all that dumb "Cleganebowl/Get Hype" meme babble, but because Sandor does have an intimate familiarity with the Lannister family, he knows the layout of King's Landing very well, he is a superb swordsman despite (or perhaps because of) his age, he would love nothing more than to see his brother Gregor dead and buried, Cersei had Gregor reanimated (thus robbing Sandor of that satisfaction), and he has now joined hands with the Brotherhood without Banners, a band of outlaws who oppose the aristocracy's predations on the smallfolk and attack the aristocracy whenever they can. So my money says that something's going to leave Cersei and her entourage open to an encounter with the Brotherhood, Sandor's going to learn that Gregor has returned from his apparent death at Oberyn's hands, he's going to take Gregor's head off (perhaps after receiving a mortal wound from Gregor in return) and he's going to strangle Cersei dead -- and bring the prophecy to its rightful end -- right before he dies. :It's a theory, anyway. Knowing GRRM, he might just torment us by having Sandor and Gregor kill each other and leaving Cersei unscathed, only for Jaime or Tyrion to finish the job later. -- BloodyBay from YouTube (talk) 00:04, October 19, 2016 (UTC) To-Do list from this episode *Revelation about Jon Snow's true parentage *Jon as the new King in the North, and reprecussions *Destruction of the Great Sept (or whatever name we're going for with that), including deaths of Tommen and Pycelle (associated) **Cersei becoming queen, reperecussions for House Lannister **Reprecussions for House Tyrell *Arya making Frey pie, and repercussions --The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:44, July 3, 2016 (UTC) House Tyrell and House Frey updated with "Current Status" sections. Stuff remaining: *Lannister changeups, re Queen on the Iron Throne *Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Eddard page updates *Updates to "King in the North" page *Destruction of the Great Sept article *Screenshots Then we can get back to overhanging stuff from across all of Season 6.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 16:12, July 5, 2016 (UTC) Stuff that really needs screenshots *Oldtown and the Citadel - every blessed frame, also the front desk maester's book if possible. Books! *In King's Landing: destruction of Great Sept scene plus interiors, explosion frame by frame (particularly interior) Cersei watching between two pillars, Cersei's new costumes, and Cersei's coronation. All obvious stuff. *Young Ned Stark flashback - ...we got most of the relevant stuff already. Need a shot of Dawn I guess. *Winterfell, present: mostly have these already, just some better shots of the Northern lords if possible. IMPORTANT: by brightening the images, do any of them have visible sigil decorations on them? Manderly does for certain on his gorget but we already have that one. *Daenerys's fleet at the end - every blessed frame!! Ships, banners, crews, dragons, everything. --The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:28, July 3, 2016 (UTC) :Percy... err, I mean Robett has the Glover fist on his Gorget, but again, that's not new. - 19:31, July 3, 2016 (UTC) Really? Cool. Needs a screenshot.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 19:44, July 3, 2016 (UTC) :Most evident in this sceenshot. - 06:00, July 5, 2016 (UTC) ....Props department and Costume department aren't communicating on whether it's a right or left-handed fist.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 06:17, July 5, 2016 (UTC) Should have Ned told Catelyn the truth about Jon? Telling Catelyn the truth about Jon's origin would have saved her much misery all those years, thinking incorrectly Ned cheated on her. On the other hand... Catelyn might have not agreed to spend the rest of her life in fear lest Robert found out the secret. The chances for that to happen were very slim - but not zero. Although Ned was Robert's best friend, I don't think Robert would have forgiven him for raising the child of the man he hated most of all. In his wrath, all the Starks might have lost their heads. So... should have Ned told her the truth or not? 10:43, August 15, 2016 (UTC) : That's a very good question. Ned was absolutely staunch about upholding his own sense of honor, so he would not stain his own honor by lying about Jon's origins lightly. He made a solemn vow to his sister on her deathbed, and Jon's young life was on the line. So by claiming Jon as his own son, Ned upheld his vow to Lyanna and he shielded Jon from death at King Robert's hands (even if Robert himself apparently had his doubts about the story, given his intimate familiarity with Ned's code of honor). : So I have to say that Lord Eddard did the right thing by lying about Jon's parentage, even if it did lead to unhappiness for both Catelyn and Jon ("It should have been you"). Unhappiness can be resolved; death cannot...at least not without the Lord of Light getting involved. And if Ned had told Catelyn the truth, then all it would ever take was for Catelyn to have a Freudian slip while Robert or one of his informants was within earshot, the jig would be up and Jon would be dead. Who would reclaim the North from Ramsay Bolton then? BloodyBay from YouTube (talk) 00:37, October 19, 2016 (UTC) Luring Lancel So here's what I don't understand: Lancel told the High Sparrow that Cersei and her litter never left the Red Keep. The High Sparrow ordered Lancel to go to the Red Keep and fetch Cersei. Setting himself to the task, Lancel walked outside with two other Sparrows. Lancel saw Arthur running down the stairs, immediately told the other two Sparrows to "get the others," then hurried off after Arthur alone. So why would Lancel do this? 1) Lancel, being a former squire, a former knight and an apparently trusted Sparrow, was accustomed to following orders. The High Sparrow's orders were to go to the Red Keep and fetch Cersei, not to chase off after some random street urchin. Why would Lancel violate these direct orders thus? 2) If Lancel has no prior history with Arthur, then why would Lancel chase off after what appears to be some random, lowly little boy milling around the Great Sept? 3) If Lancel does have a prior history with Arthur, then what is it? I don't recall the series doing anything to suggest such a history, but given Lancel's highborn status and Arthur's lowborn status, they're probably not friends or relatives. So my money says that Lancel decided to chase Arthur because he suspects that Arthur is up to no good (as confirmed by Lancel's "The longer you wait, the worse it'll be for you..." threat to Arthur in the tunnels), in which case, why would Lancel tell the other Sparrows to leave him instead of commanding them to join him in the pursuit? If the supposed threat which Arthur poses is urgent enough to warrant an immediate chase (and violation of the High Sparrow's orders), then it's surely urgent enough for Lancel to bring some back-up, just in case Arthur's luring him into a Thieves Guild meeting, or an ambush, or a trap, or whatever.... So can anyone explain why Lancel decided to break away from his errand to the Red Keep and chase off after Arthur? It makes no sense to me. BloodyBay from YouTube (talk) 22:59, September 26, 2016 (UTC) :1) Because writing of this episode was what I would say the worst ever in so many ways (your point being one of them) :2) High Sparrow and all his sparrow brothers were MAJORLY written in this episode as nothing more than absent-minded Faith Militant compared to what we've seen from them in all the previous episodes and what they're capable of. Quote "We can overthrow an empire" comes to mind. :3) A huge fan-serviced episode at the expense of show's quality and actual plot storyline hope that answered some of your Q's Ramsay 23:18, September 26, 2016 (UTC) : I'd rather save "Because it's in the script" and "Because the writing sucks" for last resort explanations, not as first measures. Maybe I'm just being an optimist, but if there is a legitimate reason for Lancel running off like that, I'd like to explore that possibility first. : As for "This episode has the worst writing ever," I firmly disagree. It may have a few dents, but the writing for this episode still seems to be serviceable and compelling. And surely we haven't forgotten about Dorne and the Sand Snakes already; if that wasn't the worst writing in the series, I dread to imagine what is. : BloodyBay from YouTube (talk) 00:18, October 19, 2016 (UTC) I wonder if the reason for his being lured is that he doesn't really want to do this task. Recall that last time he was sent to make Cercei go somewhere, she "chose violence" and the Mountain ripped the head off of another Sparrow. She clearly doesn't want to come to her own trial, so the possiblity of another confrontation (and another headless Sparrow, including his own) might make him desperate for any excuse to not be there. A suspicious-acting child provides just such an excuse. Jonathonjones (talk) Jon Snow It does amuse me that there is lots of talk of how Jon is ahead of Dany in the line of succession. Yes this is true and I'm not disputing it, but it ultimately doesn't/won't matter as the #1 person who doesn't care about Jon being King is Jon himself(based on his entire character from the beginning to now). TheGreatKoala (talk) 14:34, October 5, 2018 (UTC)